Religion is one of those gigs with a woefully imbalanced playing field. Yes some leaders are exploitative charlatans but even with those folks skewing the averages for North America sit around $55,000 to $60,000 per year and that is not entry level. At the low end of the spectrum you find religions leaders who’ve been contracted at quarter time who make between $5000 and $30,000 per year.
Paying for seminary = paying for grad school. On average a bachelors should put you on track to make $60,000 and a grad degree $75,000. So seminary isn’t an investment most people see an immediate return on.
Yes theoretically you can balance other roles but like most things that aren’t always as straightforward as one might imagine.
As for how much should they get paid? Arguably enough to live and be healthy where they serve. Keep in mind many ministry leaders are obliged to live within the communities they serve so this figure looks very different in Hattiesburg than it does in Los Altos Hills.
There are arguments for not paying them well from both structural and faith based angles. I’m sure many here on substack can attest to these. Clergy pay can be really contentious from many POVs.
But bottom line your clergy ought to be able to keep up with dental health but probably shouldn’t be able to buy a small city on their own.
The faith leaders preying instead of praying and preaching a pay to play prosperity gospel grift…well I believe the Good Shepherd would not approve.
When our non-profit organization was struggling financially because of embezzlement and horrific money management, we still were committed to paying a living wage for our paid workers. The Board Members were fully volunteer so that was not an element. We were in the business of helping people in need. It was decided that we should not be creating a culture of even more people in need by underpaying our staff.
Sadly, we had to eventually lay off the entire paid workforce and shutter operations until we could pay our creditors and find new revenue sources. While not operating at the level we once were, we are once again able to help people in need.
Now, management negotiates a living wage (what the employees need to feel good about the work they do and which matches our ability to pay) and that has worked out for the organization.
We only have a few employees but they are "comfortable" as you offered as an option.
The volunteers are even more "comfortable" in not being paid.
I think I’m the only non-Christian in America who doesn’t care if pastors get rich.
As long as preachers aren’t lying about their need for money or doing illegal things to make money, I really can’t judge.
My understanding of Joel Osteen’s fortune is that he has been refusing a church salary for a long time and makes his millions from his books/speaking engagements. His mansion is his personal property so I’m assuming he pays taxes on it.
If I point at a famous pastor and say “he shouldn’t be so rich when others are poor” then that would be pretty hypocritical of me.
20% of the world population is desperately poor. Like, real poverty where your home is made of discarded metal or mud and you’re eating some kind of gruel for every meal.
Compared to that, I’m living in extravagant wealth. I have air conditioning. I have pets. I have appliances I only use a few times per year. I spend money on hobbies. I have an extra freezer.
If I’m not willing to voluntarily give all my money away and live in a van down by the river, I really shouldn’t expect anyone else to.
Hey Pam, I take your point, completely. Even Jesus said we’ll always have the poor with us. It’s not that I expect other religious folk to live in poverty— Paul said they should be paid fairly—it’s more about my own discomfort and wrestling with the topic.
When a religious person makes millions on the back of their religion, however, it looks like making money is their goal, and spirituality is their chosen means to that end. I’ve seen cancer patients ask for prayers from pastors of these megachurches, and be pelted in return with requests for donations, and offers to buy grossly-overpriced Bible-themed trinkets.
Caring about others is the keystone of many faiths — the Abrahamic religions and Buddhism say this at the point of entrance. We can’t care about people and watch them suffer without trying to help. Hoarding cash, living in a mansion, and traveling by private jet isn’t helping anyone but the person sitting in that cushioned seat…so I call bullshit on all that.
I’ll grant you it’s a fraught subject because anyone who lived through or learned about the 1980’s saw Jim and Tammy crying on TV begging for money when in fact they owned multiple houses and did not need money.
When I was a teenager, our pastor’s BFF raised a bunch of money that supposedly went to building feeding stations in Central America. It’s interesting how right after that time period he started flying around in a private jet and got in trouble for misusing government funds. Then he got caught committing another financial crime having to do with real estate.
There are a lot of bad actors out there and they probably make it hard on pastors who are just trying to make an honest living.
Jimmy Swaggart used to have a 5:30am show that took specific portions of the New Testament each day and broke it down as to what it would mean by today's standards, language and such. I set the alarm early, coffee pot readied from the night before. Teach me Jimmy, teach me. It was very interesting, not preachy, more like a history lesson.
One day I was watching a Telecast from South America, a packed stadium with all the locals and more, crying and weeping and hoping and praying for a miracle, like their life and soul depended on it.
Jimmy is on the stage, preaching, the holy spirit is in the air, the holy spirit feels you, famously crying with them. Twenty minutes, thirty minutes, tears everywhere. Then, BAMM, he's waving his hand at the camera, sobbing. Send me your money, we need to pay for the cameras and keep this broadcasting going and the this and the that, and then, the camera begins zooming in for a close-up like it always does, on those sobbing, I feel your pain, eyes.
But as the camera was zooming in, I caught a really good look at that outstretched hand waving in the donations, and there is was, a $50k diamond beveled, diamond encrusted, solid gold Rolex. The King Daddy Rolex. I looked at it, then I looked at the 20 thousand sobbing peasants he was pleading for money from. Back and forth, back and forth my anguished eyes endured, my heart torn open. Traumatized. What is this Jimmy? you you.....
Holy, You asked what we think. I liked how you started with the tenet of asymmetry between the major self-serving gospel to the ears and then the pocket book ministries and the minor self-sacrificing gospel to the ears and then the pocket book ministries. Everybody has to eat. Some like bigger portions and there are plenty of sheep for them to feed on.
What amazes me is that these supposedly intelligent people feeding these voracious appetites, proclaim masterful knowledge of the word of their Lord and Savior, and then violate the teachings they espouse to follow, at the same time. Drunk on the spirit of the Lord in the air, waving their outstretched hands and arms to and fro, expecting a miracle that never comes, for the 20th time. A con man's wet dream. Maybe they are packing nitrous oxide under the seats.
In the local church, gathered together with 500-600 of your friends and neighbors, the sermon, the coincidental hymns and then you know it's going to happen, the passing of the plate. Down one side of the pew to the other, row by row for all to see if you are a good christian or not. Are you a $1 ehh christian or a big time $20 champion of the holy ghost.
If the church did not shame you to give by making public your contribution, it would go broke.
To me, this spoke volumes as to the true aspirational power of the gospel rather than to it's validity. I could tell you some stories.
Religion in any form is “only what you make of it”. You can sit under a tree, one with nature, and be just as spiritual as going broke on Easter or Christmas. Cash cows for the capitalist. But I do like my peeps and chocolate bunnies.
Now specifically about this article. It started out with a stated agenda, well versed and written to adhere to the subject matter of your title, then BAM, here comes the gospels co-mingled through out. I really liked what you were asking, I just didn’t want to get preached to.
I felt duped. That's just me. The trip to the Emerald City for a specific reason, only to pull back the curtain.
Conclusion: The local church has a community presence and offers a more individual opportunity for counseling and participation in spiritual wellness. The Mega Televangelist: There is absolutely nothing of any for real personal caring for others going on there. It is a cold hearted for profit business, and they should not be receiving tax breaks or any type of governmental relief. I truly in my heart feel sad for their weak minded prey. Compassion? That's a tough one.
Religion is one of those gigs with a woefully imbalanced playing field. Yes some leaders are exploitative charlatans but even with those folks skewing the averages for North America sit around $55,000 to $60,000 per year and that is not entry level. At the low end of the spectrum you find religions leaders who’ve been contracted at quarter time who make between $5000 and $30,000 per year.
Paying for seminary = paying for grad school. On average a bachelors should put you on track to make $60,000 and a grad degree $75,000. So seminary isn’t an investment most people see an immediate return on.
Yes theoretically you can balance other roles but like most things that aren’t always as straightforward as one might imagine.
As for how much should they get paid? Arguably enough to live and be healthy where they serve. Keep in mind many ministry leaders are obliged to live within the communities they serve so this figure looks very different in Hattiesburg than it does in Los Altos Hills.
There are arguments for not paying them well from both structural and faith based angles. I’m sure many here on substack can attest to these. Clergy pay can be really contentious from many POVs.
But bottom line your clergy ought to be able to keep up with dental health but probably shouldn’t be able to buy a small city on their own.
The faith leaders preying instead of praying and preaching a pay to play prosperity gospel grift…well I believe the Good Shepherd would not approve.
When our non-profit organization was struggling financially because of embezzlement and horrific money management, we still were committed to paying a living wage for our paid workers. The Board Members were fully volunteer so that was not an element. We were in the business of helping people in need. It was decided that we should not be creating a culture of even more people in need by underpaying our staff.
Sadly, we had to eventually lay off the entire paid workforce and shutter operations until we could pay our creditors and find new revenue sources. While not operating at the level we once were, we are once again able to help people in need.
Now, management negotiates a living wage (what the employees need to feel good about the work they do and which matches our ability to pay) and that has worked out for the organization.
We only have a few employees but they are "comfortable" as you offered as an option.
The volunteers are even more "comfortable" in not being paid.
I think I’m the only non-Christian in America who doesn’t care if pastors get rich.
As long as preachers aren’t lying about their need for money or doing illegal things to make money, I really can’t judge.
My understanding of Joel Osteen’s fortune is that he has been refusing a church salary for a long time and makes his millions from his books/speaking engagements. His mansion is his personal property so I’m assuming he pays taxes on it.
If I point at a famous pastor and say “he shouldn’t be so rich when others are poor” then that would be pretty hypocritical of me.
20% of the world population is desperately poor. Like, real poverty where your home is made of discarded metal or mud and you’re eating some kind of gruel for every meal.
Compared to that, I’m living in extravagant wealth. I have air conditioning. I have pets. I have appliances I only use a few times per year. I spend money on hobbies. I have an extra freezer.
If I’m not willing to voluntarily give all my money away and live in a van down by the river, I really shouldn’t expect anyone else to.
Hey Pam, I take your point, completely. Even Jesus said we’ll always have the poor with us. It’s not that I expect other religious folk to live in poverty— Paul said they should be paid fairly—it’s more about my own discomfort and wrestling with the topic.
When a religious person makes millions on the back of their religion, however, it looks like making money is their goal, and spirituality is their chosen means to that end. I’ve seen cancer patients ask for prayers from pastors of these megachurches, and be pelted in return with requests for donations, and offers to buy grossly-overpriced Bible-themed trinkets.
Caring about others is the keystone of many faiths — the Abrahamic religions and Buddhism say this at the point of entrance. We can’t care about people and watch them suffer without trying to help. Hoarding cash, living in a mansion, and traveling by private jet isn’t helping anyone but the person sitting in that cushioned seat…so I call bullshit on all that.
I’ll grant you it’s a fraught subject because anyone who lived through or learned about the 1980’s saw Jim and Tammy crying on TV begging for money when in fact they owned multiple houses and did not need money.
When I was a teenager, our pastor’s BFF raised a bunch of money that supposedly went to building feeding stations in Central America. It’s interesting how right after that time period he started flying around in a private jet and got in trouble for misusing government funds. Then he got caught committing another financial crime having to do with real estate.
There are a lot of bad actors out there and they probably make it hard on pastors who are just trying to make an honest living.
Jimmy Swaggart used to have a 5:30am show that took specific portions of the New Testament each day and broke it down as to what it would mean by today's standards, language and such. I set the alarm early, coffee pot readied from the night before. Teach me Jimmy, teach me. It was very interesting, not preachy, more like a history lesson.
One day I was watching a Telecast from South America, a packed stadium with all the locals and more, crying and weeping and hoping and praying for a miracle, like their life and soul depended on it.
Jimmy is on the stage, preaching, the holy spirit is in the air, the holy spirit feels you, famously crying with them. Twenty minutes, thirty minutes, tears everywhere. Then, BAMM, he's waving his hand at the camera, sobbing. Send me your money, we need to pay for the cameras and keep this broadcasting going and the this and the that, and then, the camera begins zooming in for a close-up like it always does, on those sobbing, I feel your pain, eyes.
But as the camera was zooming in, I caught a really good look at that outstretched hand waving in the donations, and there is was, a $50k diamond beveled, diamond encrusted, solid gold Rolex. The King Daddy Rolex. I looked at it, then I looked at the 20 thousand sobbing peasants he was pleading for money from. Back and forth, back and forth my anguished eyes endured, my heart torn open. Traumatized. What is this Jimmy? you you.....
I'm done , I'm out.. the end.
Holy, You asked what we think. I liked how you started with the tenet of asymmetry between the major self-serving gospel to the ears and then the pocket book ministries and the minor self-sacrificing gospel to the ears and then the pocket book ministries. Everybody has to eat. Some like bigger portions and there are plenty of sheep for them to feed on.
What amazes me is that these supposedly intelligent people feeding these voracious appetites, proclaim masterful knowledge of the word of their Lord and Savior, and then violate the teachings they espouse to follow, at the same time. Drunk on the spirit of the Lord in the air, waving their outstretched hands and arms to and fro, expecting a miracle that never comes, for the 20th time. A con man's wet dream. Maybe they are packing nitrous oxide under the seats.
In the local church, gathered together with 500-600 of your friends and neighbors, the sermon, the coincidental hymns and then you know it's going to happen, the passing of the plate. Down one side of the pew to the other, row by row for all to see if you are a good christian or not. Are you a $1 ehh christian or a big time $20 champion of the holy ghost.
If the church did not shame you to give by making public your contribution, it would go broke.
To me, this spoke volumes as to the true aspirational power of the gospel rather than to it's validity. I could tell you some stories.
Religion in any form is “only what you make of it”. You can sit under a tree, one with nature, and be just as spiritual as going broke on Easter or Christmas. Cash cows for the capitalist. But I do like my peeps and chocolate bunnies.
Now specifically about this article. It started out with a stated agenda, well versed and written to adhere to the subject matter of your title, then BAM, here comes the gospels co-mingled through out. I really liked what you were asking, I just didn’t want to get preached to.
I felt duped. That's just me. The trip to the Emerald City for a specific reason, only to pull back the curtain.
Conclusion: The local church has a community presence and offers a more individual opportunity for counseling and participation in spiritual wellness. The Mega Televangelist: There is absolutely nothing of any for real personal caring for others going on there. It is a cold hearted for profit business, and they should not be receiving tax breaks or any type of governmental relief. I truly in my heart feel sad for their weak minded prey. Compassion? That's a tough one.
BTW, thanks for the like on my comment.